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Driving Lessons

I'm liking exercises #7 #8 #9 of Amanda Shyne's COME TO HEEL in Aprils Clean Run. Will this encourage Stel to drive into me?
Does anyone read Clean Run?
If I want to ramp up her obstacle focus, can I also be ramping up her drive into me? I've been told she doesn't have either of these things...

How have we ever been able to compete?????

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( 23 comments — Leave a comment )
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 03:17 pm (UTC)
But I have also been told she's fast.
moodypdx
Apr. 16th, 2014 04:19 pm (UTC)
Have you taught her, or does she naturally, come in and jump on you? One game I play with all of my foundation students is to teach the dog to come into the handlers space for treats and toys, or just to play. I start by being on the ground, usually on my knees, and really encourage the dog to come in. We start by playing, seeing if the dog is comfortable in my space, and then I ramp it up. Cookies, toys, happy loud voices, barking, the whole thing. I want my dog to be very comfortable and happy when coming into my space. This can lead to being knocked over;) But it's all in the attitude.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 05:40 pm (UTC)
She was a therapy dog so she's been trained not to rush and jump on us... But this is really interesting Tanmy because she really is a dog that normally will not invade anyone's space. There are floor games I play with her where I can get her to dive all around me and under me , but igenrrally she likes to have her own space and respects others space. She's not a cuddler either. Interesting. I've only in the last year started kissing and hugging her regardless of whether she's happy about it or not.
nosemovie
Apr. 16th, 2014 06:09 pm (UTC)
This is ONLY my opinion, and observation... take it for anything it's worth (and it's not much).

Whenever a puppy person says to me "I'd like my puppy to learn therapy or guide dog work, and possibly agility" I cringe.

Yep.

In my mind, it's like saying "we'd like our son to grow up to be a nuclear physicist and a cage fighter"

I just don't think the disciplines compliment eachother in any way. The things you WANT and need your dog to be/do for therapy, guide dog are diametrically opposed to what you encourage in agility.

Now, I'm CERTAIN there are dogs out there who excel at both these things. I suppose if I said "that's not possible!" they'd come out of the woodwork to blast me and I'd feel the fool, and ya know what? That would rock actually because I never know what to SAY to people who tell me this when I meet their puppies! So Ok, I'll go out on a limb. I've never met a dog who excelled at both these things at the same time. I've met puppies who easily passed their CGC, and then went on to great agility careers, but I think that's different. Nothing stops an agility dog from having good manners. But when I meet guide dogs, I always sorta feel badly for them because their training is SO rigid and controlled (as it has to be) and I wonder where the fun and innovation gets stuffed and what happens to play drive and enthusiasm. Have you ever met an enthusiastic guide dog? Maybe they just hide it really well. ;)
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 06:47 pm (UTC)
guide dogs and therapy dogs---two very different things. therapy dogs still get to be dogs... with manners. but you made me laugh with your comparison!!!
She was not allowed to jump on the kids with their IVs or whatever... tho she wanted to, we had to do some extra training... she was allowed to jump up on their beds for hugs and company, if the kids wanted and we put a special sheet down first... mostly though it was doing tricks with or for the kids
but she wanted to jump and kiss and play, loads of over the top energy when she saw the kids, we had a lot of work to do to get her to understand the job...

i've heard people say they like their agility dogs rude




nosemovie
Apr. 16th, 2014 06:56 pm (UTC)
Tammy would be the first to say (or second, after Anne) that Rumble is "rude." Tho, I'm not sure that helps him out much in agility. ;)

For me it's a lot more about not squashing natural play instinct. Sure, plenty of dogs don't naturally play "high" bouncy or rough, but if you DO have that, it's super great to mold that into desire to play "the game" with you.

People who tell me "oh, we'd NEVER tug with our dog, it causes dominance issues! blah, blah, blah" I just tell them they've just lost a really good piece of the play puzzle. Which doesn't mean you CAN'T play with a non-tugging dog! it only means you now have to go find, or replace a key piece of your dog's play cycle. And I learn all about play cycles from Denise Fenzi! Some dogs get joy out of the many stages in the play cycle, but if you have a dog that likes one piece in particular, and you remove or don't allow that piece, your work has just gotten much much harder.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 07:06 pm (UTC)
well that makes sense.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 07:00 pm (UTC)
guide dogs and therapy dogs---two very different things. therapy dogs still get to be dogs... with manners. but you made me laugh with your comparison!!!
She was not allowed to jump on the kids with their IVs or whatever... tho she wanted to, we had to do some extra training... she was allowed to jump up on their beds for hugs and company, if the kids wanted and we put a special sheet down first... mostly though it was doing tricks with or for the kids
but she wanted to jump and kiss and play, loads of over the top energy when she saw the kids, we certainly had a lot of work to do to get her to understand the job... so on your theory, maybe this is good thing?

i've heard people say they like their agility dogs rude






Edited at 2014-04-16 07:01 pm (UTC)
matildasmom
Apr. 17th, 2014 07:05 pm (UTC)
Actually, there are some issues therapy dogs vs guide dogs/service dogs. Service dogs such as guide dogs for the blind or deaf, seizure dogs, dogs that help the physically handicapped, these dogs are allowed to go most anywhere with their owners. Therapy dogs do go to hospitals, libraries, schools and some places pet dogs normally are not allowed, but only when they're working. They're not allowed in food stores and if they fly they must fly with baggage unless they're small enough to fly under the seat.

Some people with therapy dogs or even dogs with no special certification try to pass their dogs off as service dogs. It's easy to buy those vests. Then they fly their dogs for free in cabin, take their dogs into libraries, etc. I think flying their dogs is the big one. An agility guy out here talked about doing that.

Quite a few of the people in my therapy dog group were puppy raisers for guide dogs. Their therapy dogs were dogs that flunked out of the guide dog program, often for being too social.
nosemovie
Apr. 17th, 2014 07:10 pm (UTC)
Oh, when I said "excel at both things" I was meaning agility and therapy/guide dog work.

That's not something I've seen ever. A guide dog or therapy dog that was also a crack agility dog. They CAN do it, but the two disciplines do not compliment eachother.
biggmellon
Apr. 16th, 2014 10:37 pm (UTC)
oh and Troy my "drivest" golden was also my best therapy dog, just fyi:) All of my goldens have been both without any issue, but I was also careful from the onset of their training to make the distinction that vests & indoor more clinical settings were where they used their "indoor quiet behaviors" and arenas were where they could be rowdy.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 10:54 pm (UTC)
well, Stella certainly did pretty quickly learn that the vest meant she was working and what that meant, what was going to be expected of her...

I'm thinking if I could just re-ignite her tugging luv, i can work on getting her to drive into me AND maybe obstacle focus... so far I've done the obstacle focus exercises with just food... cause thats her first luv
biggmellon
Apr. 16th, 2014 11:12 pm (UTC)
you can use the food if it makes her happier, but make her have to MOVE to get the food, so have it be something like you tug for a moment and then run to the food, or you throw a food toy she needs to bring to you to open for her. Everyone of my goldens would tug, but food was more motivating to them and they would work harder if they knew food was on the line, so I always used things like little plastic tupperware containers or food pouches that they had to run and grab and bring back to me to open, so as they finished something I wanted to reward I could throw the food container and keep the motion and reward WHERE I wanted to mark, then after we played fetch or tug with the food container I could open it and they'd get the food reward on top of our retrieving or tug game. For my better tuggers I premacked tug to mean cookies, they'd tug we'd run to their cookie bag. I make the game that if I am using food to motivate a dog, getting the food from me takes some effort and I don't just hand it to them. As I open the container I move it a bit so they have to steal the food out of it, I let them think they are getting away with something;) Make getting the food a fun game too!
semperfido
Apr. 16th, 2014 10:27 pm (UTC)
Remember - my article has so much of LM's heel work. I'm finding half of my CU students are just missing this foundation and they really aren't problem dogs - have just only learned obstacles and no value put into jumps or handling.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 16th, 2014 10:44 pm (UTC)
yep, thats how we got started too and i feel like i have been filling those huge gaps ever since... is your article scheduled?
semperfido
Apr. 16th, 2014 11:07 pm (UTC)
I think I have September and October. Can't remember. I'm putting finishing touches and pictures together. I hope to be ready to submit the first one next week.

My client with a Bouvier who was running amok and peeing, humping, jumping on dogs and zooming is now able to work for an hour in a private lesson. He's not cured but so much better. He's going to be in the article with the heel work and adding in mats.
biggmellon
Apr. 16th, 2014 10:32 pm (UTC)
balance, I think the key to good quality dog training is balance.
if you equally reward a dog for obstacle focus by tossing rewards and having rewards appear away from the handler to encourage more forward motion as you do rewarding a dog for coming in close to the handler you are not as likely to have a dog heavy on one side or the other, I generally try to take into account a dog's natural leanings and do a bit more of the harder one but still keep some balance- so Ricky was a overly obstacle focused dog, more of his rewards came at my side, Emily is more handler focused, more of her rewards are thrown away from me. But I still did/do both throughout their training so she is not unpracticed or has less motivation to do one or the other. Most of my goldens had very little independent forward drive so most all of their rewards required moving ahead to retrieve their reward, but I still worked on coming in to heel and moving into my space, I just made that fun and required that before tossing the reward.
semperfido
Apr. 16th, 2014 11:08 pm (UTC)
Balance is a huge piece of the puzzle.
penichops
Apr. 17th, 2014 05:20 am (UTC)
Just do more of it
penichops
Apr. 17th, 2014 05:21 am (UTC)
;)
semperfido
Apr. 17th, 2014 02:38 pm (UTC)
BTW, you may want to read Bud Houston's blog when he writes about course design. I've been reading it a lot so I understand set ups for classes. I think it adds a lot of insight on analyzing your walk through.
dinahprincedaly
Apr. 17th, 2014 02:44 pm (UTC)
good tip. thanks!
cedarfield
Apr. 22nd, 2014 02:11 am (UTC)
I think you can have a very drivey agility dog and a well behaved pet who never jumps on anyone or acts a bit rude but I've never met one. Even the best trained obedience dogs I've ever met who were entirely clicker trained often jump on people they like. They also aren't afraid to be pushy. Agility dogs have to have a lot of impulse control but they also need a lot of drive and push and go and that can very easily be removed with too much attention to teaching manners. I suppose that's why none of my dogs have any manners :-)
( 23 comments — Leave a comment )